Dr. Kate Lund (KL): Hey, y’all, welcome back to The Optimized Mind podcast. We explore the ways in which we can define our own unique context, build resilience, and maximize potential. I’m Dr. Kate, your host, and I’m glad you’re here.

KL: Welcome back everyone to another episode of The Optimized Mind. Today, I’m joined by Dr. Courtney Byrd, a pioneering speech language pathologist and advocate for those who stutter. We explore in depth Dr. Byrd’s transformative research and the groundbreaking animated series she’s co-developed, dedicated to empowering those she works with to embrace their unique communication styles.

KL: I was particularly struck through our conversation by the many ways in which Dr. Byrd and her team encourage resilience and acceptance of self in those they work with. Please help me in welcoming Dr. Courtney Byrd to The Optimized Mind. So welcome Courtney.

KL: Thanks so much for joining us here today on The Optimized Mind.

Dr. Courtney Byrd (CB): Thanks so much for the opportunity. I’m really, truly grateful.

KL: Yeah, so excited to have you here and hear more about all of what you’re up to, your work and all of that. But, you know, before we jump in, I’d love to hear a little bit about your path and what brought you to where you are now.

CB: Thank you for that opportunity to share. Because I do think for maybe for younger listeners out there, they might, you know, be interested in trying to decide what it is they want to do with their life. And I can remember, I guess it’s now over 30 years ago, I was working myself through college and really didn’t know what I wanted to do.

CB: But I had a class that provided experiential learning where I was able to directly provide therapy, speech language pathology, to be specific to a handful of individuals. One had had a stroke, another was a child with down syndrome, and then I had a young teenage boy who stuttered. And that experience with him has stayed with me to this day.

CB: We had a therapy protocol that required that he repeat words and sentences over and over again to try to reduce and hopefully eliminate his stuttering. And this is when they had tape recorders, and he would record himself, play it back for me. And it was clear to me that he was practicing even more than I asked him to outside of the setting, but he wasn’t showing the progress that they wanted him to show.

CB: And so my supervisor told me that he was a teenager. And not only that, he was a teenage male and said that in those circumstances, she said from her experience, they don’t practice and they’ll say that they are, but they’re not. And he just needs to come back when he’s more mature and capable.

CB: So ultimately, we discharged him and we told him that he could come back when he was ready. And in that moment, he cried. And it was because he was angry, because he felt like we were not listening to him as he was saying, I’m doing everything I can do and it’s not working.

CB: And instead, we were telling him it wasn’t the treatment. It was his fault. And then that just stayed with me and has stayed with me and set me on a path to try to find an alternative, an alternative approach to treatment, which we’ve over the last 20 years, we’ve developed.

KL: Wow, what a powerful story. And I hear you because that idea of empowering kids who are struggling with whatever it might be, but in this case, a stutter, empowering them to find ways to manage through and beyond that in a way that still allows them to flourish is so important. And that just wasn’t happening there.

KL: It was kind of like putting the responsibility of the stutter of moving through it entirely on him, a child at that time. So challenging. I hear you, and I understand why that experience has stuck with you for so long.

KL: Yeah, so I mean, communication, right? Is it the core of connection for all of us, right? And is it really is at the foundation of what is the foundation of what allows us to flourish in relationship?

KL: And so I’m really interested in talking a little bit or having an overview of some of your research on stuttering and what’s what that shown and how you’ve developed this alternative approach and what that looks like.

CB: You know, Kevin, the young man was trying to tell me so many years ago is really what was a repeated circumstance that individuals who stutter shared with me over and over and over again. And so it became clear to me that, you know, this idea that we can help someone who stutters to no longer stutter anymore really is something for which there are significant counter anecdotal and now empirical data. So the question is, what then can we offer someone who stutters?

CB: And so you have to kind of look at the progression of their life. And so if you think about the young child who stutters, and that’s in this present time, they start to stutter typically around two and a half to three years of age. And, you know, our research shows that there’s not a correlation between, you know, their perception of the way that they talk and their stuttering frequency.

CB: I mean, we can’t predict how they’re feeling based on how much or how little they’re stuttering. In fact, you know, impact isn’t measured by frequency. It’s by their personal experience with it.

CB: But everybody around them, when they hear that stutter, they get very nervous, you know? I mean, and that makes sense. There’s something they haven’t seen.

CB: They don’t know what it means. And they’re worried about not even that moment, but what is this going to mean for the child down the road? And maybe, you know, some of your listeners here, they have had a moment where they’ve been around someone who stutters.

CB: And I want you to be kind to yourself about it, because if you haven’t seen it before, and someone is talking like that, it’s empirically proven that you’ll start to feel uncomfortable, and you’ll feel a little bit nervous. And then you project that on to the person who stutters, and you assume that’s how they’re feeling when they’re actually not. But if everybody’s thinking that, oh my gosh, you’re anxious and you’re nervous when you’re doing this, then let’s try to do everything we can do so that you don’t feel that feeling.

CB: And so, what are we going to do? Well, you get a little bit older, you’re three, four, five, everyone’s talking for you. They’re asking the questions that you want to ask.

CB: They’re ordering the food for you. You get into kindergarten, first grade, second grade, third grade, and your teachers say, I can see that talking’s hard for you, so we’re not going to call on you. You can do everything one-on-one, after school, recording.

CB: And then ultimately, you get to adolescence, and you’ve not only had that protection from talking, but you’ve also been pulled out of the classroom to engage in therapy that isn’t working. And you find yourself trying to say those words again, fluently, like you could in that sterile clinical environment, but you can’t. And so then, paradoxically, not only do you feel like you’re not good at communicating, but you actually, in fact, are not good at communicating because you have not had the same pragmatic opportunities as your peers.

CB: And so our therapy essentially proactively gets these young children who stutter to be among the best communicators. And so we advocate for the opposite of what is standard. And that is that when they enter into that classroom, your main concern, teacher, should be how much are they engaging?

CB: Are they raising their hand? Are they getting up in front of the classroom? Are they openly talking and sharing and expected to communicate like everyone else?

CB: Yes, it may take more time, but they’re deserving of that time. And we should give it to them. What we don’t want to do is take our own potential initial discomfort projected on them and think we’re helping by making them not do it.

CB: We also don’t want to let the parent tell us, I don’t want them to experience this embarrassment or shame in front of their friends when they may not even be feeling that. But they definitely will if they’ve never had the opportunity to share. So one aspect is building up those communication skills.

CB: And we do this with children and adults. And what’s really important is that when you ask someone who stutters, tell me about what you think it means to be an effective communicator. Nine times out of ten, they’ll say to not stutter.

CB: But our research actually shows from the clinical perspective, the individual’s perspective and the general public’s perspective that when they go through the C.A.R.E. model and they strengthen their communication skills, that you can perceive them to be outstanding communicators. And that’s regardless of their stuttering frequency, which demonstrates that that frequency and their communication effectiveness are independent constructs. So that is one critical aspect of the treatment model.

CB: But there are others as well. But to your question, that’s the communication aspect.

KL: Absolutely love that. And I feel like I also love the animated series that you developed, that I feel like highlights a lot of the points that you just made. The point about, you know, having a child get up in front of the classroom and give that presentation as opposed to hearing the message from the teacher that, well, you can do it after school with me, just you and me type of thing.

KL: That’s not really helpful. And the act of standing up in front of the class, even if it takes longer to deliver the talk or deliver the speech, such an important and vital experience for the kid in terms of their stuttering, but then a lesson that they can carry through beyond to other challenges, that if we stick through it, if we, it’ll help us to move through and beyond.

CB: Yes. That’s where resiliency is born.

KL: Exactly. Yes. And all of the animated videos, I think really highlight that idea.

KL: Also highlight the piece about other folks understanding and having empathy, what that experience must be like without trying to eliminate it or fix it necessarily.

CB: Exactly. And I do have to acknowledge that the scripts that I wrote for the series, they come directly from the voices of the people that I’ve had the opportunity and the privilege to serve over the years. I mean, it’s their direct lived experiences just written out.

CB: And what’s interesting is, they happen over and over and over and over again. And so it’s a, you know, everyone has their own individual journey, but I can guarantee you, they also all have experienced that help that’s actually ultimately harmful. And so, you know, I think, you know, caregivers have shared with me and being a mother myself, it’s, you know, we want to do everything we can to help our children.

CB: And, you know, they’ve said everything that my instinct tells me to do is actually the opposite of what I should do in the circumstance with my childhood stutters. But had I not been provided with this, I would have done everything that would have, you know, resulted in them feeling like, you know, they aren’t good at talking, that they, you know, and limiting their ability to practice, therefore contributing to their communication attitude, and making them feel defeated before they ever even had a chance to understand that they could succeed.

KL: Yeah, that is such an important point, right? Because, you know, success looks different for all of us within our own unique contexts. And so that’s why, you know, it’s so important to help kids who might struggle with something, whether it be stuttering or otherwise, to find a way to flourish within their own unique context.

KL: And so that, I believe, really means integrating that piece of themselves they struggle with. You know, maybe it’s a stutter, maybe it’s, you know, so it’s not trying to hide it, but rather trying to integrate it into their sense of self and being without defining themselves based on it, but yet it’s a part of them. So how can they move forward, integrate it, and flourish within that context?

KL: I think that’s such an important point that’s being highlighted here.

CB: And it is, you know, exactly what you’re saying. And it’s also how is our treatment shaping that integration? How is it contributing to, you know, helping them to understand that it doesn’t define them or paradoxically making it define them because they cannot see past it because that is what they know everyone wants them to stop doing.

CB: And I think, you know, one of the one of the greatest challenges that I find, you know, fortunately, I think more and more people are becoming more understanding of what ableism is. However, there’s this this question that always comes up. It’s like, well, if they’re seeking fluency, why don’t you just go ahead and give it to them?

CB: And, well, what I say is, I can’t. I don’t have that ability to give it to them. So why would I try to do that just because they want it?

CB: And by the way, everyone who comes does want it. But the other part is that it’s a contradiction. And young children, especially, they have such remarkable, brilliant minds.

CB: And if I say to them, you know what, it’s okay to stutter, but let’s see if we can do it a little bit less. Then all they hear is that you don’t want me to do it as much, so I know that that’s a negative. And just one of the other things that stands out to me is, and this has been said time and again, a young nine-year-old said, the thing I like about it here is that you’re not trying to fix my stuttering or make it go away like I previously experienced.

CB: And now I’m not afraid to get up in front of a group of people, but before I used to be a nervous wreck. And so it’s like, if you can understand that the end goal is to get them to communicate more, but maybe that treatment path that you’re taking that you think is accommodating, maybe what they might want, it’s actually ultimately going to result in them talking less and feeling more negative about their speech rather than what you intend for it to do.

KL: Right, exactly. And that’s another point that you highlight so beautifully in that animated series with, you know, the young man and the friend asking him his name, and he just kind of put his head down and didn’t answer and went the other way. But then in the next series or later on in the video, came for that friend and was able to say his name and was able to kind of explain what was happening.

KL: And so, so powerful in helping others to understand and develop that empathy. What is your thought sort of more globally in the classroom? What can kids who stutter do to, or what can be done in the classroom to help other kids to understand and to develop that sense of empathy and not be uncomfortable or fear-based around it?

CB: Well, I think that’s a great question. What you just described, that particular scene, is the power of self-disclosure. And in fact, we have published many studies to show that, if you can just tell someone, this is what it is, I stutter.

CB: You may hear me repeat a few sounds or words. If there’s anything I say that you don’t understand, I’m happy to repeat myself. It’s really nice to meet you.

CB: And that’s the ideal way to share. But the instinctive way to share is to, I stutter, please bear with me. Something I struggle with, I’m trying to make it go away.

CB: And guess what the research shows when you do it that way, then people view you through the stereotype lens. So as it relates to being in the classroom, what classmates need to understand is that the child who stutters isn’t stuttering because they’re nervous. They’re not stuttering because they’re shy.

CB: In fact, the child who stutters in your classroom might be the most extroverted person in your classroom. You just have to find out. But, you know, and it’s not something that they can just make go away if they try hard enough or it’s not because they’re insecure.

CB: And, you know, and all you need to do is just show them that you’re listening. You don’t need to finish their sentences, you know, and if you if you want to ask them a question, you could say, may I ask you a question about your stuttering? I’d love to learn more and, you know, and invite a conversation that’s non-judgmental.

CB: The most important thing would be to educate yourself about what stuttering is, understanding that it’s neurophysiological, understanding it’s similar to if maybe you’re left handed and that’s the way you write, they stutter, that’s the way they talk. And so it’s as simple as that. Give yourself the space to feel comfortable with it.

CB: Be kind to yourself. If you don’t at first, you will as you hear it more. And so just try to find more opportunities to talk to them because it’ll be a benefit to both of you.

KL: Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. So desensitizing to that discomfort through understanding and empathy.

KL: And so this is making me think of a situation. Our boys when they were in third grade, I think, had a classmate who stuttered. And what happened there was he gave a little presentation in front of the class and explaining what was happening and explaining to the class, you know, why he talked the way he did.

KL: And that was a wonderful opportunity for empathy to develop among his classmates’ understanding. And it really, really helped him to develop a greater sense of comfort and kind of allowed him to flourish through the rest of that school year and beyond. And just a really cool thing.

KL: And one of my boys was very socially, emotionally aware and really took that presentation to heart and came home asking all sorts of questions. And it was really, it was really cool. It was a really neat experience.

CB: A thousand percent agree. I mean, for our young children who go through our program, they all, you know, self-advocacy is a critical part, agency is a critical part of therapy. And part of that is teaching others about stuttering.

CB: You’d be surprised how many adults have never been taught. I mean, adolescents, they don’t even, they don’t know, but they navigate every day living with stuttering, but they have been educated about it. So another core aspect of our treatment is to get children as young as age three, as much as they can understand about it, we teach them.

CB: People will say, but isn’t it true that children can outgrow their stuttering by age seven? And why would you teach them about it if they might outgrow it? And the reason for that is that in that time frame between three to seven, there’s a lot of different encounters that they could have.

CB: Oftentimes, like we show in the video series, it’s with the most educated people who say the most ignorant things that can be harmful. And not only in the short term, but in the long term. So we prepare them for that.

CB: And the more you feel like you know what it is that you are navigating, even if conversations are happening around you, and you don’t really want to comment on it, you don’t feel afraid inside yourself thinking, I don’t know if that’s true or not true. I’m not sure. You know, because a similar story with my son, there was a young man who, or a young boy at the time, who was in his class and he stuttered.

CB: Now, he had not come to treatment yet, but my boys have only grown up around stuttering, and he heard him stuttering, and then someone else said something about his stuttering. And, and Bruxy was like, oh, he got really excited. And he said, you’re going to get to come to do all these, like he started describing all these things.

CB: And he said, and someone said, well, he could take medicine for it. And he said, no, no, he can’t know. And they said, if he tries hard enough or something, and Bruxy was being very corrective, and I had to say, it wasn’t your turn to talk.

CB: You can’t, you cannot do that, because your friend, he wasn’t ready to share, and you were offering commentary in that moment, speaking for him, which that is a way in which can also be traumatic, even though you were trying to be helpful. So it was an interesting moment for us. And that particular friend has since gone through the C.A.R.E. model.

CB: And he now at the young age of 13 has two businesses of his own, is not unusual for people who stutter because they’re brilliant. And he will talk and share and did, in fact, do a presentation about stuttering multiple times in front of his class and other places where he’s been.

KL: Oh, my goodness. I love that story. I love it because at the core of that, it’s empowerment, it’s building resilience, it’s allowing kids to flourish within their own unique context, which happens to involve stuttering.

KL: So, yeah, I absolutely love that and I love that model. And so, yeah, this is such, such important stuff, because it’s true. I mean, we all have something, right?

KL: And we’re gonna present the challenges and giving them those tools, that understanding to move through and beyond those challenges is everything, really. I absolutely love what you’re doing. And, and so, I always like to ask my guests, you know, shifting gears a little bit, you know, how you maintain your own resilient mindset, given this amazing work that you’re doing, just in general.

CB: I’m inspired by the people that I, the children, the teens, the families. I mean, I’ve met people, listened to their journeys, seen the impact of truly embracing, stuttering openly and recognizing that every time they open their mouth, you know, there’s potential for someone to judge them, you know, potentially discriminate against them, make fun of them, you know, and yet they still keep talking, you know, they still keep going, keep moving, keep, keep, you know, pushing, and I think it’s an example for me over and over again of what it means to be resilient. And so that’s, you know, it isn’t easy because we are pushing forward an approach that it goes against the standard.

CB: You know, people really want us to be focusing on fluency at least a little bit. They don’t understand why we don’t at least try to get them to focus on modifying that moment of stuttering. And what I have tried to offer is this is an alternative.

CB: Not everyone has to do it. But candidly, via a podcast, I’ll tell you, I do believe it has many positive psychological, social, you know, mental health benefits. Because, I mean, if it’s something that you are likely to persist in doing, then the more you resist it, you know, the more difficult every step is going to be. And so I guess I’m going back to my own circumstance. But because I see, you know, so many different people, I hear their stories. They’ve had years and years of therapy that didn’t work, pain associated with that.

CB: Some of it has even fractured their family system. It just is the stories that make me want to just never give up. And so when people tell me I should be doing this another way, I remind myself, who do I need to listen to?

CB: And I need to listen to the voices of every individual and their families and loved ones who’ve taken the time to share with me parts of their life that are not easy to share. And learn from that and just keep moving and try to get to as many people as I can.

KL: I love that. That is such a powerful and empowering, really, message, you know, for all of us. And it really is at the core of what it means to be resilient, that ability to move through and beyond, keep going when you keep getting knocked down.

KL: And I just absolutely love that.

KL: I love that.

KL: So shifting gears yet again, a little bit. I always ask my guests kind of what defines them outside of the amazing work that they do, you know, hobbies, passions. And I’m just curious what that looks like for you.

CB: You know, word of life balance is always an interesting thing for me. I think sometimes when your life’s purpose is your work, it’s difficult to have that balance and the sense of like, I can’t tell you that I have a consistent hobby. I would say outside of my work, my boys define me.

CB: And so it’s, you know, whatever I can do to be the best mom for them would be my hobby to make sure that they are kind, that they find what their purpose is would be probably the biggest blessing for me to know. Because I think that when you have that, I don’t know, it is the cliche that it’s not work, but it is work. But at least it’s work that fills your soul and your heart.

CB: And so I think that’s something that I feel great before every day, because I know that that unfortunately isn’t true for every person. In the second half of my life, I do or less than half, depending on how long I live, I do think it would probably be good for me to watch a few more sunsets. But I think I’ll probably feel more at ease when I see that the world actually is shifting and it is a better place for people who stutter.

CB: And you see that that stigmatization actually is changing and hopefully one day ending. I might be able to rest a little bit more easily on that rocking chair. But right now, I’ve got too much that I need to do.

KL: Wow, that’s powerful stuff too. I love that. I absolutely love that.

KL: And I hear what you’re saying, you know, and I resonate with you too. We have two boys also. They’re 17.

KL: How old are your boys?

CB: 17, 15, and 13. 

KL: Oh, wow. Okay. So you’re in that same kind of teenage domain.

CB: Yes.

KL: Definitely keeping on your toes. But what I’m thinking is they have a wonderful example in their mom who’s really committed to and doing this work that is so meaningful and so important really in terms of helping the world become a better place.

CB: I thank you for that. I will say my children are my inspiration, but they are so much better than I could ever be. And my youngest son, I’m sorry, my oldest son, Michael, he has epilepsy.

CB: He was actually diagnosed with that in his freshman year. And right now, we’re doing college applications and those kind of things. And his college essay probably make me cry if I try to say this, but he gave it to me.

CB: He was like, Mom, is this good? Is this good? And I looked at it.

CB: And it was the first part of it. He says, I’m standing and I’m four years old. I’m standing in the middle of a camp that my mom has created for kids who stutter.

CB: And the microphone reverberates and I say, Hi, my name is Michael. I think I started stuttering when I was about two and a half years of age. And then he’s cut to the fact that I interrupted him and had to take the microphone away and say, actually, Michael doesn’t stutter, you know, but that’s all he had been around since he was, you know, really little around people who stutter he wanted to, right?

CB: And then he goes on to tell his journey with, you know, getting to his freshman year and all these things that happen and ultimately being diagnosed with epilepsy. And he gives the parallels of that with stuttering. He ends his essay and he says, if I could go back, I would say, Hi, my name is Michael and I don’t stutter.

CB: But, you know, being around people who stutter my whole life has given me the courage to navigate life in a way that I never would have. And I can only hope to be, he says, something like as beautiful and kind and empathetic as the people who stutter that I’ve met over the course of my life. So, you know, it’s like that also thinking about the impact that the people that I’ve been able to work with have impacted my children, made them better and stronger and more resilient for the things that they’ve faced, makes me, you know, drives me all the more.

KL: Wow, that is, I mean, that’s amazing. I can’t tell you how much I love that story. I mean, what an insightful, aware, self-aware, empathic young man who’s working through his own challenge, which is not easy in any way.

KL: I really understand that as well. And wow, that’s powerful. And so he’s going places.

KL: He’ll do wonderfully well with the whole college thing because that’s a process in and of itself. Trust me, I get that too. It’s like, whoa.

KL: Yes. But anyway, I can’t tell you how much I appreciate you being here today and just appreciate what you’re doing with this work and everything else. And so I’m just curious, where can folks connect with you, learn more?

KL: Where can they do that?

CB: Well, you can find us at linkcenterforstuttering.org. You can follow us at at linkcenterstuttering. I’m not the best social media, but I will tell you, our Instagram is really inspirational.

CB: You can reach out to me directly at stuttering@austin.utexas.edu. That’s our general, but it always gets to me. So, or courtney.byrd@austin.utexas.edu.

CB: But I’m sure Kate, you could share that. I welcome any questions. We provide our services at no cost.

CB: And we do that because truly every single person we meet with, we’re learning from them. And we take everything that we learn and we put that into our training, we put it back into our treatments. So we make sure that we’re continuing to revise, refine it and make it stronger.

CB: And that we’re training as many people as we can, so that wherever you go, you can have access to this care.

KL: Amazing. Thank you, Courtney. Thank you so much for being here.

KL: I greatly appreciate it.

CB: Well, thank you, Kate. And thank you for all that you do. Your podcast is certainly an inspiration to everybody who needs to hear it.

KL: Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. Thanks for being here, all.
KL: And as always, please share your ideas and feedback with me. And please, if you like what you’re hearing, subscribe to the show. Until next week, onward.